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	<title>Comments on: Dharma dudes</title>
	<link>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/</link>
	<description>A Peculiar, Yet Refreshing, Blog</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 11:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: airwest78</title>
		<link>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-68</link>
		<author>airwest78</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-68</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, I'm still swimming in the various kinds of 'grace' according to Methodist doctrine, so I am provoked by thought at your visual of boat crossing a wide river. Buddhist doctrine is quite interesting. Way over my head but interesting nonetheless. DLW, who still has faith but no boat</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, I&#8217;m still swimming in the various kinds of &#8216;grace&#8217; according to Methodist doctrine, so I am provoked by thought at your visual of boat crossing a wide river. Buddhist doctrine is quite interesting. Way over my head but interesting nonetheless. DLW, who still has faith but no boat</p>
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		<title>By: bbbeard</title>
		<link>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-61</link>
		<author>bbbeard</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 05:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-61</guid>
		<description>Glad to have Dawn and Dawn Lee onboard!

Dawn Lee wrote: &lt;i&gt;the most fundamental principle of organized religion, be it Catholic, Protestant, or Buddhism is faith or acceptance. &lt;/i&gt;

I respectfully demur. Buddhist doctrine (in both Greater and Lesser Vehicles) places faith secondary. Buddha likens the role of faith in enlightenment to the role of a boat crossing a wide river. Once you get to the other side, you need not take the boat with you on your further travels. In fact, if you are a strong enough swimmer, you don't even need the boat. The point is that faith is a convenient path to enlightenment, but is not an end in itself. 

I gather that Christian doctrine is significantly different on this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to have Dawn and Dawn Lee onboard!</p>
<p>Dawn Lee wrote: <i>the most fundamental principle of organized religion, be it Catholic, Protestant, or Buddhism is faith or acceptance. </i></p>
<p>I respectfully demur. Buddhist doctrine (in both Greater and Lesser Vehicles) places faith secondary. Buddha likens the role of faith in enlightenment to the role of a boat crossing a wide river. Once you get to the other side, you need not take the boat with you on your further travels. In fact, if you are a strong enough swimmer, you don&#8217;t even need the boat. The point is that faith is a convenient path to enlightenment, but is not an end in itself. </p>
<p>I gather that Christian doctrine is significantly different on this point.</p>
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		<title>By: airwest78</title>
		<link>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-59</link>
		<author>airwest78</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 02:54:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-59</guid>
		<description>Oh well, here goes. For all you brilliant and overly educated people, here's a word from the team of the still goin' to church opposition...Looky here, boys and girls (and a shout out to my other classmate Dawn) the most fundamental principle of organized religion, be it Catholic, Protestant, or Buddhism is faith or acceptance. For Catholics and Protestants, it is in 'things unseen' Not sure where the Buddhist rules are but I could ask Richard Gere the next time I see him, or BBB, same rules. I am amazed at how many of my brilliant classmates refer to religion in terms of logic, order, structure, and method and then look to relate them all as thought the substance of a jigsaw puzzle and the framework in which they fit. CVM and your consideration of the Holy Trinity being an example...to quote my Chicago friends, "it is what it is" sort of like quarks...people can't see quarks, but they believe they exist and they can sorta kinda quantify them but you wouldn't know a quark if it was sitting next to you without your high dollar machinery to tell you if it was sorta here or there. Now then, as far as the differences in denominations goes, I hold the record among Keystonians for most Protestant denominations every while being on a Jesuit prayer chain and being in line as Auntie Mame to attend a bar mitzvah in 2 years. Other than that, I have religion...but more importantly, I have a faith, very plain, very simple, nothing more or less. People stand around in robes and really nice haircuts, or in Mexican wedding shirts with goatees that should have been shaven 2 weeks ago and they call themselves ministers...doesn't matter--they are either inspired or they inspire despite themselves... I was raised Lutheran with Baptist Sunday School minor...attended Methodist, Lutheran, and several kinds of synods within the denominations....became Episcopalian and then jumped ship to the Methodists...where the covered dish suppers sat well with my soul and I wasn't being pushed, pulled or pressured...then they elected this inane woman as the bishop of our Texas Conference of Methodists and frankly, it all went to hell in a handbasket for the past five years. So, I've been hanging out with the Presbyterians and not having to join and on vacation from some of the stranger Methodists who accept everyone along with the concept of divine grace, prevenient grace, and saving grace, or something like that. For those of you who are not familiar with the Unitarians (and I remember the faiths that many of you were raised in or not), one of my friends who got a PhD from Rice in Comparative Religions at age 65 did her first Unitarian sermon and concluded with "in the name of the father, son, and Holy Spirit"...by reflex, having started life as an Episcopalian. Hard to tell where education and practice begin and end. 

Rambling above leads to no facts, no real argument, but just some phrases for thought...belief in things unseen, God, father, Jesus the son, Holy Spirit, God incarnate in Man...a heaven, a heavenly creator, and from the hymnbooks, CVM, while his eye is on the sparrow, I know he is watching me...I believe. I understand that others don't. No one is more or less right than the others. Good to question, good to examine pluses and minuses and in the end, no one will know until the final breath exhales from our lips and the life force concludes its residence in this earthly lifeform. We're taught that matter is neither created nor destroyed...our bodies are full of potential and kinetic energy, the capacity to do work. Is that destroyed when life is over? at the end of this long, arduous, somewhat fantastic and occasionally boring journey we call life, I would like the answer to believe it as I have believed it as a child...."is that all there is?" and the answer is "no"...

Hope to make it to heaven and hope to see everyone there. Might be the only time we get an all-class reunion together again. Hugs and kisses from your entirely less educated, whacked out, faith-holding, Bible carrying gal, smack dab in the heart of Texas...DLW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh well, here goes. For all you brilliant and overly educated people, here&#8217;s a word from the team of the still goin&#8217; to church opposition&#8230;Looky here, boys and girls (and a shout out to my other classmate Dawn) the most fundamental principle of organized religion, be it Catholic, Protestant, or Buddhism is faith or acceptance. For Catholics and Protestants, it is in &#8216;things unseen&#8217; Not sure where the Buddhist rules are but I could ask Richard Gere the next time I see him, or BBB, same rules. I am amazed at how many of my brilliant classmates refer to religion in terms of logic, order, structure, and method and then look to relate them all as thought the substance of a jigsaw puzzle and the framework in which they fit. CVM and your consideration of the Holy Trinity being an example&#8230;to quote my Chicago friends, &#8220;it is what it is&#8221; sort of like quarks&#8230;people can&#8217;t see quarks, but they believe they exist and they can sorta kinda quantify them but you wouldn&#8217;t know a quark if it was sitting next to you without your high dollar machinery to tell you if it was sorta here or there. Now then, as far as the differences in denominations goes, I hold the record among Keystonians for most Protestant denominations every while being on a Jesuit prayer chain and being in line as Auntie Mame to attend a bar mitzvah in 2 years. Other than that, I have religion&#8230;but more importantly, I have a faith, very plain, very simple, nothing more or less. People stand around in robes and really nice haircuts, or in Mexican wedding shirts with goatees that should have been shaven 2 weeks ago and they call themselves ministers&#8230;doesn&#8217;t matter&#8211;they are either inspired or they inspire despite themselves&#8230; I was raised Lutheran with Baptist Sunday School minor&#8230;attended Methodist, Lutheran, and several kinds of synods within the denominations&#8230;.became Episcopalian and then jumped ship to the Methodists&#8230;where the covered dish suppers sat well with my soul and I wasn&#8217;t being pushed, pulled or pressured&#8230;then they elected this inane woman as the bishop of our Texas Conference of Methodists and frankly, it all went to hell in a handbasket for the past five years. So, I&#8217;ve been hanging out with the Presbyterians and not having to join and on vacation from some of the stranger Methodists who accept everyone along with the concept of divine grace, prevenient grace, and saving grace, or something like that. For those of you who are not familiar with the Unitarians (and I remember the faiths that many of you were raised in or not), one of my friends who got a PhD from Rice in Comparative Religions at age 65 did her first Unitarian sermon and concluded with &#8220;in the name of the father, son, and Holy Spirit&#8221;&#8230;by reflex, having started life as an Episcopalian. Hard to tell where education and practice begin and end. </p>
<p>Rambling above leads to no facts, no real argument, but just some phrases for thought&#8230;belief in things unseen, God, father, Jesus the son, Holy Spirit, God incarnate in Man&#8230;a heaven, a heavenly creator, and from the hymnbooks, CVM, while his eye is on the sparrow, I know he is watching me&#8230;I believe. I understand that others don&#8217;t. No one is more or less right than the others. Good to question, good to examine pluses and minuses and in the end, no one will know until the final breath exhales from our lips and the life force concludes its residence in this earthly lifeform. We&#8217;re taught that matter is neither created nor destroyed&#8230;our bodies are full of potential and kinetic energy, the capacity to do work. Is that destroyed when life is over? at the end of this long, arduous, somewhat fantastic and occasionally boring journey we call life, I would like the answer to believe it as I have believed it as a child&#8230;.&#8221;is that all there is?&#8221; and the answer is &#8220;no&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>Hope to make it to heaven and hope to see everyone there. Might be the only time we get an all-class reunion together again. Hugs and kisses from your entirely less educated, whacked out, faith-holding, Bible carrying gal, smack dab in the heart of Texas&#8230;DLW</p>
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		<title>By: dpkeogh</title>
		<link>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-56</link>
		<author>dpkeogh</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-56</guid>
		<description>the point is not to detach from desire or to avoid suffering.  the point is to recognise and rise above our attachments.  not to detach from the world, but attempt to walk in balance, beauty and harmony, in this world, in our skin and in all of our fallible humanness...

and.  my experience has taught me a very simple rule of thumb: If 'it' (whatever 'it' may be) is based on fear, then I walk away from 'it', and turn my attention elsewhere.

Have you encountered Eckhart Tolle yet?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the point is not to detach from desire or to avoid suffering.  the point is to recognise and rise above our attachments.  not to detach from the world, but attempt to walk in balance, beauty and harmony, in this world, in our skin and in all of our fallible humanness&#8230;</p>
<p>and.  my experience has taught me a very simple rule of thumb: If &#8216;it&#8217; (whatever &#8216;it&#8217; may be) is based on fear, then I walk away from &#8216;it&#8217;, and turn my attention elsewhere.</p>
<p>Have you encountered Eckhart Tolle yet?</p>
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		<title>By: aurora_guy</title>
		<link>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-43</link>
		<author>aurora_guy</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Hey, when's someone going to cover "Ramen - Real Men: Shintoists in the 21st Century"?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, when&#8217;s someone going to cover &#8220;Ramen - Real Men: Shintoists in the 21st Century&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: bbbeard</title>
		<link>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-41</link>
		<author>bbbeard</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 05:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.bbbeard.com/2008/09/17/dharma-dudes/#comment-41</guid>
		<description>Items in brief: 

&lt;i&gt;In any case, I’m still hoping for a little clarification: what is the essential content of Buddhism?&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Well, there is a famous Zen saying, "The essence of Buddhism is no-essence. The content of Buddhism is no-content." But you’ve indicated this is unsatisfactory from a didactic point of view. So, let us pretend that language is a suitable means for communicating ideas about the mind.

&lt;p&gt;
Most of my commentary that follows is from a Zen viewpoint. Your mileage may vary.

&lt;p&gt;
There is a human condition that involves continuous abstraction and evaluation. We look at a sandwich and experience some blur of thoughts ranging from "I’m hungry" to "I need to lose weight" to "oily" to "quick" to "smells good" to "rye bread" to "wry bread"… and so on. We invent doctrines of universals ("this sandwich is a particular instance of the universal class of sandwiches") and contingency ("if I eat this sandwich, my actions will have caused the death of some poor bologna creature"). We are used to thinking that this flood of consciousness is "experience", but – as Socrates might have agreed – the flood of consciousness is like shadows on the wall of a cave. The point is that this blur of thoughts crowds out real experience, which is to say, experience is &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; the flood of words and images. Experience is what we experience, not what we think we experience. Now, Socrates argued that the invented universals are the true "reality", but the less said about that nonsense, the better. The Shakyamuni Buddha led us to understand that, with practice, we can quiet the "monkey mind" and truly experience that which is real. Try it sometime.

&lt;p&gt;
More to the point, and what distinguishes the Buddha from a run-of-the-mill philosopher, such practice leads to a deep understanding of mind and of "non-localism" – also known as the ultimate interconnectedness of all entities within the light cone. You see, Socrates and Confucius developed some epistemology and created ethical systems, which, yes, the Buddha did, but the Buddha went beyond this with prescriptions of practice that lead to actual enlightenment. Side note: the colorful Tibetan Buddhists have a very intricate epistemology of the psyche, not all of which mainstream Buddhists buy into, but it’s food for thought. (Or perhaps, non-thought). Think of it: two thousand years of isolation, left alone to contemplate the structure of the mind and consciousness. What might you figure out? It is said that the Tibetan language contains dozens, if not hundreds, of words for states of mind that cannot be translated into English, simply because English speakers have never thought deeply enough about the mind to find equivalent names. 

&lt;p&gt;
So perhaps I could summarize the "essential content of Buddhism" as: Buddhism provides an understanding of life and mind that strips away layers and layers of false conceptualizing. Consequent to this are stereotypical Buddhist attitudes about humanity and its role in the universe.

&lt;p&gt;
&lt;i&gt;As a non-Buddhist, I would say an (if not the) essential content of Buddhism is that the way to avoid suffering is to detach oneself from desire.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;p&gt;
American Buddhists prefer to translate "vairagya" as "non-attachment" instead of "detachment", although the latter is sometimes used by authors not so familiar with the nuances of English. The non-attachment is to things in the realm of the unreal, i.e. to the concepts we invent, not to desire itself, although desire is a manifestation of attachment (obviously). But you are echoing the third of the "&lt;a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths rel="nofollow"&gt;Four Noble Truths&lt;/a&gt;" that Buddha is said to have grasped when he became enlightened. So you might say the Four Noble Truths are the essential content; they are certainly prominent. Note there are four truths, dealing with (I) the nature of suffering, (II) the origin of suffering, (III) the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the path to the cessation of suffering. It’s a package deal.

&lt;p&gt;
In re Christian esoterica, &lt;i&gt;ma femme&lt;/i&gt; indicates that there is a considerable tradition of Christian esotericism, which is one reason she feels Buddhism and Christianity are reasonable close in template, if not in precise content. 

&lt;p&gt;
In re the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism, I have the impression from my experience with folks of both stripe that Catholicism relies heavily on the evolution and maintenance of doctrine by the community of believers, i.e. the Church, while Protestants believe that the Bible is a stand-alone document. Does that accord with your impression?

&lt;p&gt;
I’m not sure if there is a single line of scripture that Buddhists would hang in the football stadium, as it were. "Buddha smiled" comes to mind for some reason, perhaps because of the contrast with &lt;a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_wept rel="nofollow"&gt;John 11:35&lt;/a&gt;. Another choice might be Chao-Chou’s response, "&lt;a href=http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/bodhidharma/mu.html rel="nofollow"&gt;Mu&lt;/a&gt;" – about which considerable commentary has arisen.

&lt;p&gt;
I ran across a pretty good summary of Buddhist doctrine at buddhanet. See &lt;a href=http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm&lt;/a&gt;. I’d agree substantially with 1-24, and my only reservations about 25-27 are that these primarily deal with exoteric doctrine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Items in brief: </p>
<p><i>In any case, I’m still hoping for a little clarification: what is the essential content of Buddhism?</i></p>
<p>
Well, there is a famous Zen saying, &#8220;The essence of Buddhism is no-essence. The content of Buddhism is no-content.&#8221; But you’ve indicated this is unsatisfactory from a didactic point of view. So, let us pretend that language is a suitable means for communicating ideas about the mind.</p>
<p>
Most of my commentary that follows is from a Zen viewpoint. Your mileage may vary.</p>
<p>
There is a human condition that involves continuous abstraction and evaluation. We look at a sandwich and experience some blur of thoughts ranging from &#8220;I’m hungry&#8221; to &#8220;I need to lose weight&#8221; to &#8220;oily&#8221; to &#8220;quick&#8221; to &#8220;smells good&#8221; to &#8220;rye bread&#8221; to &#8220;wry bread&#8221;… and so on. We invent doctrines of universals (&#8221;this sandwich is a particular instance of the universal class of sandwiches&#8221;) and contingency (&#8221;if I eat this sandwich, my actions will have caused the death of some poor bologna creature&#8221;). We are used to thinking that this flood of consciousness is &#8220;experience&#8221;, but – as Socrates might have agreed – the flood of consciousness is like shadows on the wall of a cave. The point is that this blur of thoughts crowds out real experience, which is to say, experience is <i>not</i> the flood of words and images. Experience is what we experience, not what we think we experience. Now, Socrates argued that the invented universals are the true &#8220;reality&#8221;, but the less said about that nonsense, the better. The Shakyamuni Buddha led us to understand that, with practice, we can quiet the &#8220;monkey mind&#8221; and truly experience that which is real. Try it sometime.</p>
<p>
More to the point, and what distinguishes the Buddha from a run-of-the-mill philosopher, such practice leads to a deep understanding of mind and of &#8220;non-localism&#8221; – also known as the ultimate interconnectedness of all entities within the light cone. You see, Socrates and Confucius developed some epistemology and created ethical systems, which, yes, the Buddha did, but the Buddha went beyond this with prescriptions of practice that lead to actual enlightenment. Side note: the colorful Tibetan Buddhists have a very intricate epistemology of the psyche, not all of which mainstream Buddhists buy into, but it’s food for thought. (Or perhaps, non-thought). Think of it: two thousand years of isolation, left alone to contemplate the structure of the mind and consciousness. What might you figure out? It is said that the Tibetan language contains dozens, if not hundreds, of words for states of mind that cannot be translated into English, simply because English speakers have never thought deeply enough about the mind to find equivalent names. </p>
<p>
So perhaps I could summarize the &#8220;essential content of Buddhism&#8221; as: Buddhism provides an understanding of life and mind that strips away layers and layers of false conceptualizing. Consequent to this are stereotypical Buddhist attitudes about humanity and its role in the universe.</p>
<p>
<i>As a non-Buddhist, I would say an (if not the) essential content of Buddhism is that the way to avoid suffering is to detach oneself from desire.</i></p>
<p>
American Buddhists prefer to translate &#8220;vairagya&#8221; as &#8220;non-attachment&#8221; instead of &#8220;detachment&#8221;, although the latter is sometimes used by authors not so familiar with the nuances of English. The non-attachment is to things in the realm of the unreal, i.e. to the concepts we invent, not to desire itself, although desire is a manifestation of attachment (obviously). But you are echoing the third of the &#8220;<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths rel="nofollow">Four Noble Truths</a>&#8221; that Buddha is said to have grasped when he became enlightened. So you might say the Four Noble Truths are the essential content; they are certainly prominent. Note there are four truths, dealing with (I) the nature of suffering, (II) the origin of suffering, (III) the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the path to the cessation of suffering. It’s a package deal.</p>
<p>
In re Christian esoterica, <i>ma femme</i> indicates that there is a considerable tradition of Christian esotericism, which is one reason she feels Buddhism and Christianity are reasonable close in template, if not in precise content. </p>
<p>
In re the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism, I have the impression from my experience with folks of both stripe that Catholicism relies heavily on the evolution and maintenance of doctrine by the community of believers, i.e. the Church, while Protestants believe that the Bible is a stand-alone document. Does that accord with your impression?</p>
<p>
I’m not sure if there is a single line of scripture that Buddhists would hang in the football stadium, as it were. &#8220;Buddha smiled&#8221; comes to mind for some reason, perhaps because of the contrast with <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_wept rel="nofollow">John 11:35</a>. Another choice might be Chao-Chou’s response, &#8220;<a href=http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/bodhidharma/mu.html rel="nofollow">Mu</a>&#8221; – about which considerable commentary has arisen.</p>
<p>
I ran across a pretty good summary of Buddhist doctrine at buddhanet. See <a href=http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm rel="nofollow">http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm</a>. I’d agree substantially with 1-24, and my only reservations about 25-27 are that these primarily deal with exoteric doctrine.</p>
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